http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23379673-details/It's+rape+if+the+woman+is+drunk,+according+to+new+law/article.do
Men face jail for rape if women are 'too drunk' to consent in bed to boost convictions
Men who have sex with drunk women could face a rape charge
Men who have sex with drunken women will be at risk of being convicted of rape under new laws to be considered by ministers.
The legal shake-up would mean a woman would be considered incapable of giving consent to sex if she had been drinking heavily.
Police would be asked to carry out blood and urine tests on a woman who complained of rape to find out how much alcohol is in her body. They would then used "back calculations" to work out how drunk she was at the time of the alleged attack.
A "drink and sex limit" would sweep away the confusion and controversy in the courts surrounding the issue of when a man accused of rape can claim he believed a woman gave her consent to sex.
But it would open the way to prosecutions of husbands or regular boyfriends who have sex with drunken wives or partners as well as fierce arguments over medical evidence and real levels of intoxication of alleged victims.
A consultation document is to be published by the Home Office in the New Year that will lay down the basis for new laws and try to meet Labour's aim of forcing up numbers of rape convictions. At present only one rape accusation in 20 ends in a conviction and ministers are convinced that means rapists are getting away with it.
Almost all disputed rape cases are of "partner", "acquaintance" or "date" rape in which both parties were known to each other before the alleged attack happened.
A rape law making it an offence to have sex with a woman who has reached a set level of drunkeness is to be proposed by the Home Office committee that four years ago recommended the disastrous reclassification of cannabis that made possessing the drug less of a crime.
The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs is to report next month suggesting the use of medical tests and back calculation.
A study carried out last month for the Association of Chief Police Officers suggested that a women could be expected to show 'marked intoxication levels' after drinking the equivalent of two bottles of wine.
It found that in 120 cases of sexual assault examined by researchers, in 119 cases the woman had been drinking.
But because of "marked time delays between the collection of samples and the incident", alcohol could be detected by tests in only 62, just over half, of the cases. Blood tests can find alcohol in the body 24 hours after drinking and urine tests after 72 hours.
The ACPO research found that in 31 cases alcohol levels at the time of the incident could be estimated by "back-calculating".
It said it was "significant" that 22 cases showed the woman had 200 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of blood.
This level is equivalent to eight 175 milliletre pub "standard" glasses of wine, or two and a half times the drink driving limit.
But the ACPO report warned that there are "caveats about the approximate nature of the calculations".
Back calculations usually work on the basis that the body breaks down one unit of alcohol - half a pub standard glass of wine - every hour. However, alcohol breaks up in different bodies at different rates.
The ACPO report said: "If one considers a social drinker, one could expect marked intoxication at levels of 200 milligrams per 100 millilitres and symptoms could include reduced inhibitions, disorientation, impaired judgement and co-ordination, drowsiness, memory loss and, at higher levels, unconsciousness."
The law already suggests that a woman who is asleep or unconscious is less likely to have consented to sex. Since 2003, a man accused of rape has had to show he had "reasonable" grounds for believing a woman consented. Before then, he had only to demonstrate that he believed she had consented.
Solicitor General Mike O'Brien is considering the drink and sex limit among proposals for new rules that could also include fresh guidance for juries on matters of consent and the right for defendants to call experts on rape who would explain to juries how damaging to a victim the offence is.
A Home Office spokesman confirmed yesterday that the Advisory Council has produced a report and added: "The results will be published in the New Year. It will then be for ministers to decide what may be the right policies to take forward."
But criminologist Dr David Green of the Civitas think tank said: "They are trying to introduce scientific certainties where there are no scientific certainties. The pretence that there can be certainty is likely to lead to miscarriages of justice.
"It is much better to leave these things to the good sense of juries to decide." The legal pitfalls around rape and alcohol were powerfully illustrated in a landmark case last year in which a security guard had sex with the 21-year- old woman student while she was lying drunk and unconscious in a corridor outside her flat in a university hall of residence.
Even though the security guard, 20-year-old Ryairi Dougal, was a stranger to the woman, a judge at Swansea Crown Court instructed the jury to bring in a not guilty verdict because she could not remember whether she had given consent.
"Drunken consent is still consent," Mr Justice Roderick Evans told the jury.
Case study: Ryairi Dougal was cleared of rape in a landmark case last year because his alleged victim was too drunk to recall events.
The security guard had sex with the student while she was lying drunk and unconscious in a corridor outside her flat in Aberystwyth University.
The case hinged on whether the 21-year-old he was accused of assaulting had consented to sex.
Swansea Crown Court was told by the woman there was "no way" she would have agreed, but when questioned by the defence, she acknowledged she could not remember anything and therefore could not definitively say if she had consented or not.
Even though 20-year-old Mr Dougal was a stranger to the woman, the judge told the jury to bring in a not guilty verdict because she could not remember whether she had given consent.
I saw this today and, needless to say, was disgusted. It's not that the concept is new....feminists have pushing it for some time, it's just scary to see it passing beyond the realm of radical feminism into possible legislation. It's yet another attempt to relieve women of accountability for their actions. As I stated previously in an online discussion, if a woman isn't responsible for any of her sexual decisions or actions while drunk, then why is a man? If we follow that line of "logic", a man shouldn't be guilty of committing rape if he can prove he was inebriated at the time it occurred. If they pass this travesty, what's going to come next? Mark my words, it'll only be a matter of time before we see them trying to pass through lesgislation that a woman isn't capable of giving consent if she has P.M.S. because of the hormonal effects on her body, or that a man should have been able to read her body language and discern if her "yes" really meant "no". If you give consent, you give consent. Unless you've got a knife to your throat or a gun to your head at the time, you gave your consent and are therefore accountable for that decision. For me, much of the current problems with the behavior of women are quite simply explained. If you take away all acountability from a person and allow them not to bear the responsibility for their actions or decisions, what do you end up? Go to any club or bar in the west and you'll find your answer...p.s. they'll be the ones in heels.
Saturday, September 29, 2007
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18 comments:
The most significant thing about all of this is the chilling effect that it will have on normal m/f relations.
Which of course sounds like more of feminism's master game plan: to drive a wedge between the sexes, create trouble, and then turn around and blame it on men.
Which of course sounds like more of feminism's master game plan: to drive a wedge between the sexes, create trouble, and then turn around and blame it on men.
Yep, all part of the grand design...separation of sexes and destruction of marriage and family
I suppose if a woman is caught driving while drunk, the police will need to locate a man to charge for not having prevented it. Or is it me that's being ridiculous?
Yup, classic "chick logic" for ya...
Fact is though, girls PURPOSELY get drunk so they can have sex with as many strangers as possible and feel less guilty about it. It's a VERY CONSCIOUS and volitional act. No "accidents" here. Therefore, they SHOULD be held ACCOUNTABLE for it!
@ Rob
I don't think it's that far removed from the realm of possibility. Maybe it wouldn't be your fault for not preventing it, but I'll bet you there's a man somewhere who's to blame for making her so upset that she was forced to consume enormous amounts of alcohol and drive. It was emotional abuse, thus she cannot be held responsible for her actions!
Fact is though, girls PURPOSELY get drunk so they can have sex with as many strangers as possible and feel less guilty about it.
@byrdeye
I agree. If they didn't, we wouldn't see a woman getting drunk and doing something she "regrets" and then turning around and repeating the behavior the following weekend.
Kim, you're the first one I came across that I gleaned this info from---it's clearly anti-male in legislation and an invasion of privacy. The hubris of state and federal powers to punish men is stunning.
Aside from that, I can attest to what byrdeye is saying, because in the past I've been (kind of) a lounge lizard. In fact, I've seen women do this more times I can count---and take wonder why I'm cynical of their behavior so much.
As an attorney, I know that nowhere else in the law does getting drunk provide an excuse for behavior. The person who drank is presumed to intend (consent to) all of the natural consequences of their actions. This particular piece of proposed misandry is particularly ridiculous in light of the well-known propensity of women to "have a glass of wine" to decrease their inhibitions before sex. The message should be clear: women are basically infants who are incapable of controlling themselves, and should not be held reponsible for anything. And women wonder why men increasingly have contempt, rather than respect, for them? Go figure.
"I know that nowhere else in the law does getting drunk provide an excuse for behavior"
But, what about vehicular manslaughter?
"Ma'am, you just ran into a minivan...and killed a family of 5!"
"But Ociffer, I was DRUNK!"
"Ohhhh! Ok, I'm sorry...good excuse. You're free to go now!"
See, being DRUNK SHOULD be an excuse for any behavior, RIGHT???
Such a law would also allow men to charge women with rape.
I can recall incidents where the man in question was drunk, had sex, woke up in the morning seriously regretting it and recalling that the woman was stone cold sober.
What a sex criminal! A predator looking for her chance!! A female rapist, pouncing on some poor unsuspecting guy, hanging around bars hoping the only legal freely available stupor-inducing drug would do her dirty work, allowing her to have her wicked way!!! And once the deed is done, not only is her appetite satisfied, but with a bit of luck a pregnancy and 18 years of support! Sex AND Money! Oh Joy!
I wonder if the drafters of this legislation think exactly like this, and so therefore suspect all of us do?
The hubris of state and federal powers to punish men is stunning.
Isn't it though? That this could ever actually be drafted just boggles the mind. I keep waiting for somebody to jump out and say, "Gotcha! We were just kidding...you didn't REALLY think we were serious, did you?" Sadly, I'm still waiting.
The message should be clear: women are basically infants who are incapable of controlling themselves, and should not be held reponsible for anything.
Exactly, and this is what feminists are pushing for...the same feminists who are supposed to be fighting FOR women. Amazing that the alleged defenders of women have done more damage to the gender than any other group.
I wonder if the drafters of this legislation think exactly like this, and so therefore suspect all of us do?
Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
it would open the way to prosecutions of husbands
Such laws are ridiculous.
Similar rules are in my native country (Austria, Europe) - a feminist stronghold.
Concerning these laws, as a husband to be sure to be on the safe side, I should ask my wife to sign a consent-form before even talking to her or touching her to avoid to be accused for sexual harassment.I should install video/audio surveillance in the bedroom and make sure, that she did not drink anything containing alcohol before sexual intercourse to avoid a possible spousal rape charge.
Question to a married woman: Why are you married? Do you not expect to have a regular sexual relationship with your husband?
Is a husband legally seen the same as a stranger you meet in the street?
Is the wife not expected to consent to sexual intercourse with her husband out of the marriage contract?
The woman (yes, also your wife!) needs only to cry rape the next day, even if she said yes to you last evening, because she drank a glass of wine or beer and felt sleepy.
The man (husband or stranger does not matter) will face domestic violence and rape charges - even if he was drunken, too.
No wonder, there is deep mistrust towards any female - even against the own wife. As man you need to be very cautious. Even with best intentions, legally you are always acting in a grey-zone - even while having sex with your own wife.
Yohan: I have never understood the concept of rape within marriage. You are right; if a woman makes marriage vows, she is openly and deliberately consenting to sex with the man she is marrying. So why does she have a get-out card? How can it be rape when she has proclaimed to God and the world that she consents to sex with that man?
Apply the same logic to the husband's responsibilities to his wife. Can he elect, at any time of his choosing, to refuse to suppport her financially, or to turn her out of the house, just because he felt like doing it at the time? If he did, would he have the law on his side, or against him? Can you imagine a man acting in such a way and being opposed by his wife, being supported by the state and encouraged to take action against her for her supposed theft of his property? Why does it not work that way too?
Yohan: I have never understood the concept of rape within marriage. You are right; if a woman makes marriage vows, she is openly and deliberately consenting to sex with the man she is marrying. So why does she have a get-out card? How can it be rape when she has proclaimed to God and the world that she consents to sex with that man?
I agree. By denying her husband sex, a wife should be in breach of the marriage contract. If she's not willing to uphold her end, then why he be expected to uphold his.
My first exposure to this as a phenomenon was when I was about 22 years old. My best friend had this girlfriend who had always been a party girl. I went out with them maybe 15 times to hang out. Every time we went out, literally EVERY time we went out, sometime during the evening she would point to some guy and say, "That guy raped me once. He got me really drunk."
At the time, I couldn't understand how she could be so calm about the whole thing. It wasn't until much later that I realized she got herself really drunk all the time so she could say whatever happened wasn't her fault.
The sad part is I don't think women realize how big a deal it is to most guys to say "rape".
Even if it was a one-night-stand, you want to feel like the other person at least LIKED you. The hurt and anger caused by casually calling such a thing rape is something most girls don't understand. Also, I think there's a danger of a certain personality type saying, "If I'm going to be convicted of something, I might as well have the satisfaction of comitting the crime..."
@ Sam
Wow, that sounds like one scary girl. You've got to feel sorry for the poor guy who makes the mistake of having sex with her.
It's stupid laws like these that trivialize rape and , make women out to be children.
No wonder people always view rape allegations with such suspicion and skepticism.
Feminists and activist lawmakers turn a real crime into emotional hyperbole.
Paradoxically, I see legislation like this as one way that will eventually gaurantee the return of the patriarchal ways..
Think about it..
The more the state legislates to REMOVE womens accountability..
The more men are expected to take on responsibility for those clearly too infantile to do it for themselves...
Before you know it..
"Hey presto!"..
Can you see that too?
Let me say right now that if a man has sex with an unconscious woman, HE IS to blame, not her. The fact that she drank does not make her a willing participant. On the other hand, I see the danger the extreme version of this new law could present to men. We have to be very, very careful of the line we draw in these laws, less either men or women be targeted and their rights dismissed.
Paul, I will say that I find your words offensive and your question as to "how can there rape in a marriage" very ignorant. It's very possible for there to be rape in a marriage; it used to be quite common for a man to take his wife by force and for everyone to consider this natural because, gee, since a woman made a promise for sex with a man, that must mean she has to have sex with him every single darn time he wants it whether she likes it or not, doesn't it? I don't get this logic.
"How can it be rape when she has proclaimed to God and the world that she consents to sex with that man?"
Because, sweetheart, the promise is to love him physically and emotionally as a wife, NOT to hump him every second he gets the urge.
One more thing: if a woman is unconscious and a man who's been drinking rapes her, he does NOT have the same excuse she does just because he was drinking. Why? Because it takes energy to get an erection, it takes energy to have sex, even with a helpless prone body. It takes NO energy to be raped by someone else, especially if you were unconscious. Those women never had a choice or knowledge about what was happening, but the men KNEW what they were doing.
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